Population and Government

[Lord_Phan]

First off I'd like to say, good job with this game guys, I think I last checked it out years ago. Was ordering the Original Series Remastered edition of blu-ray when I started remembering about Birth of the Federation and then remembered "hey wern't there some crazy fans making a sequal, I wonder if it's done" so searched and found it. And it appears to be moving along well in fact. I'm a stategy gamer, play alot of civ, total war and such. I have experience modding those games, so if I get time and you need help with light coding(I can in theory do C+ and the like but I'd be spending alot of time researching commands) I could do a little here and there to move it along.

Anyhow, now that the introduction is out of the way, I have a couple of small feature ideas to that would add to the game emersion, don't know if they've been mentioned before but here it goes:

Population: In the original game BOTF if you were the federation and you colonized a world it would be a human colony, I propose that colony ships be included a variable to determine their occupants race(or races if you are really ambitious) thus a ship sent off from Romulus would be romulan, a ship sent off from Bolia would be bolian and a ship from earth would be human. The new colony would be filled with said race.

Now if really ambitious you could then include a table that outlined the specific racial makup of the colonies and worlds, changing from events(Al-aurian refugees given some land, or what's left of a race after the borg annialates their system could come with a refugee ship asking for sanctuary), from standard immigration within the empire(Humans making homes on Andor, or vice versa), aswell as from conquest(Klingons moving into conquered territory, or whatnot.

This could also be included in Troops transports and soldiers or even ships and their crew. Depending on the level of emersion you wish to create. The Different races could have different strengths and weakness or different traits.
For instance Klingon soldiers are strong and have extremely high morale, but if they start recruiting Bynars into their army, that division is going to be pretty weak. Also based on weather or not that division is consscripted, volunteer or professional would determine stats and morale.
A conquered people could eventually come to see themselves as part of that empire after a long time based on how they've been treated or different improvements made to their world, also a willing entry into an empire say the Chalnoth decide to join the Klingons empire and their way of life
would then be loyal and have full stats, limited based on their abilities. This could also carry over to the Romulans via the Romulan and Remen races, different stats for the different troops.

My next point carries into my next idea, having different races react to different government structures.
So....



Governments: Each race could be set up having their own govenrment system, if conquered they would be under a government system based on the one of the conquererors, IE: The human colony of alpha centuari was created by humans, they have a Parliamentary democracy, if gives them bonuses to research and economics structures but decreases order and industrial structures. since they are humans the like Democracy so they have a huge happiness bonus because their prefered government is in charge.
However they just got conquered by the Klingons who have instituted a Military Occupational Government, under a junta style. This has a penalty on research and economic structures but a bonus on industrial and order structures but since the inhabitants are human, they HATE this type of government so they have a huge decrease in happiness. Thus requiring the Klingons to have to make sure the colony is pacified.

Races who are willingly incorporated into another system could treated differently. For instance, The federation could allow the native government to stay in place while they elect a representative for the greater empires Federation Counsel. Thus those races would be happy having their natural
leadership structures in place at a local level.

What say you?

[Kenneth_of_Borg]

I say welcome Lord_Phan and thanks for the good suggestions. Mike is about to line out the final feature set for the game so your timing is good. It will be nailed down so we have goals and finish. If you want to help here is one place to look.

[Matress_of_evil]

Hey Lord_Phan, welcome to the forums!

Race selection for colony ships almost certainly won't be in the game due to programming constraints. That said, there is a certain amount of lee-way built into the game in respects to civilization vs species. For instance, the Dominion homeworld contains Founders as the species, whilst all Dominion colonies will be inhabited by Jem'hadar - meaning the Dominion are composed of two species instead of one. (The Vorta are a minor race)

Setting the species is done via the game editor, which incidentally is how i'm implementing all of the database updates. Unfortunately, Mike is in the middle of producing a brand new editor, so he has disabled and removed the old editor for the time being, so you can't check this for yourself.

We do also plan to allow for evacuations. Whether this is technically feasible to implement is another question. IF this is possible, then the colony ships that would be generated would contain the originating race, so a refugee ship from Bolia would create a colony of Bolians.

Oh, and the minor races will be capable of expanding and colonising new systems on their own. This will definitely be making it into the game. A third of the minors will be like mini-empires and expand aggressively, another third will expand, albeit much more slowly, and the final third won't be capable of expanding at all.

...

Governments. Whilst it won't be specifically mentioned ingame, the personalities of the various races have been broken down into a number of different types. The AI will use these types to determine how a given race behaves and acts. This Page in Dafedz's Database explains the system in more detail.

These different types will determine many diplomacy and intel aspects as well. For instance, in BOTF, you could bribe anyone. We intend to make the system much more realistic though in Supremacy; bribe the Ferengi, and you'll make them happy. Bribe the Vulcans, and you'll just end up offending them. It will be up to players to work out such deals.

Bonuses in terms of morale etc are based purely on structures. And these all reflect the way the building race thinks and acts. So for instance, the Cardassians can build Forced Labour Communes, which boosts industrial output in subjugated systems by putting the population into slave labour. The Federation however does not have access to any such structures due to their morality.

Much of the detail on how the game wil work is contained in Dafedz's Database so I would recommend you look at it. My first link to the minor race setup page only takes you to that one specific page, whilst yhe second link takes you to the whole database, which is why i've provided two links.

Enjoy.

[.Iceman]

Race selection for colony ships almost certainly won't be in the game due to programming constraints.

I don't think he meant a matter of selection (since the game doesn't support different races in the same system), but of the colony ship using the race that populates the system where it is built.

That said, there is a certain amount of lee-way built into the game in respects to civilization vs species. For instance, the Dominion homeworld contains Founders as the species, whilst all Dominion colonies will be inhabited by Jem'hadar - meaning the Dominion are composed of two species instead of one. (The Vorta are a minor race)

Which means the colony ships built at a Founder system carry Jem'hadar colonists. Lots of them. Which is kind of a contradiction with the rest of the game.

We do also plan to allow for evacuations. Whether this is technically feasible to implement is another question. IF this is possible, then the colony ships that would be generated would contain the originating race, so a refugee ship from Bolia would create a colony of Bolians.

Well, weren't evacuations supposed to be carried out by non-colony ships? Ships having a stat for it and all. Of course, that poses the question, if said Bolians are transported to another system with another race already present, how can they be unloaded into the system?

[mstrobel]

The problem with colony ships carrying different races is that the habitability rating of a planet is based on the "primary race" of a civilization (the race used for colonization), and that rating affects max population and growth rate. I think it's better to avoid complicating that system.

Evacuations, if implemented, might have to work differently from what was originally proposed. It may need to work without explicitly using ships--maybe by slowly reducing the local population and distributing it between other systems. There's a couple reasons for this that I need to think about some more.

[Malvoisin]

that last thing is exactly how I see it too. I go even further and say colony ships aren't civilian ships nor do they carry any (billion) colonists at all. They are military ships designed for terraforming and colony base structure building. The rest comes with swarms of civilian ships from everywhere throughout the empire. No need to exactly divide-up where from. Same with evacuation. Basically they evacuate themselves. Sending in additional ships could be implemented but doesn't need to be. Also where they end up is rahter irrelevant. Population is more or less an equivalent for productivity units anyway so above certain borders surplus population coming from evacuated worlds can just be neglected (positive and negative impacts level themselves out).

[Kenneth_of_Borg]

I agree and it will have to be what the game needs to work in any event.

(I was writing this as you posted Mal)
Moving the populations without colony ships could be explained. We can argue that the colony ship carries the machinery needed to support a population on an undeveloped or not yet adapted world. The people move by means of shuttles that we do not represent in our game. Consider what it would take to both move a billion people for a prolonged space flight and also bring all they would need to start a new civilization in other than the Stone Age. Our colony ships can be our planetary infrastructure construction ships.

[Malvoisin]

mass-transportation between planets isn't portrayed in trek episodes anywhere by chance? One could imagine it as some sort of galactic shuttle or "train" system but I doubt it will be equipped with capacities to move around billions for example. Which then makes second option more interesting and that would be that as everyone today owns cars in the future everyone owns a slow (maybe only warp 1 or 2 and dilithium for only a two or three sector jump max) personal shuttle to travel around or move around. Or there is a rent-a-shuttle system with capacities large enough in total to move around several hundred millions from a planet to another one at a time.

Anyway, I think it's not "un-trekky" to have a "space car" system like I mentioned for the future of mankind .

[.Iceman]

Evacuations, if implemented, might have to work differently from what was originally proposed. It may need to work without explicitly using ships--maybe by slowly reducing the local population and distributing it between other systems. There's a couple reasons for this that I need to think about some more.

Not really sure what the purpose of evacuations is. A useless mechanic if you ask me - in the sense that it's wasted coding time for a feature that hardly adds anything of value to the game.
Automatic immigration/emmigration, granted, could be something useful for some games. Evacuation? Hmm. Evacuate who? The population that suffered a plague? So you're going to spread the plague? The population that suffered an orbital attack? So you're draining the system of its production power therefore making its reconstruction even slower?
Anyway, just my thoughts. It may be a "cute" idea, but hardly anything more.

[.Iceman]

Moving the populations without colony ships could be explained. We can argue that the colony ship carries the machinery needed to support a population on an undeveloped or not yet adapted world.

And exactly who operates the machinery, and assembles all the structures?
It's a LOT of structures...
Oh, incidently, it's not really a billion people.

[Malvoisin]

evacuation prevents morale drops by continuing bombardments by the enemy. When evacuating or leaving a planetary system in total (i.e. re-move all people to other star systems) you avoid civilian casualties which pays off for you if you are low on morale anyway. I agree though that it's not a primary feature of a 4x game.

On earth we got 7 billion people, I think on other class M planets this is not much different in the end.

Structures are built with people floating in simultaneously. It's just cut short in-game and represented by already existing buildings and worker slots. In the end after a few turns, result is the same. Output of basic buildings in a colony isn't significant enough to make a big difference anyway.

[mstrobel]

Keep in mind we're building a game here, guys--not a universe simulator. The game mechanics need to be fun and not overly tedious, which is another reason I am leaning against using ships for evacuation.

[Kenneth_of_Borg]

God has spoken and we live to serve his will. So let it be coded. So let it be done.

[Matress_of_evil]

Our Strobel, who art in Sharepoint, programmer be thy name.
Thy project come, thy will be done, on Earth, as it is in Star Trek.
Give us this day our daily update, and forgive us our expanding feature set, as we forgive those who ask for more.
And lead us not into boredom, but deliver us a complete game.
For thine is Supremacy, the editor and glory.
For ever and ever.
Amen.

[mstrobel]

Our Strobel, who art in Sharepoint, programmer be thy name.
Thy project come, thy will be done, on Earth, as it is in Star Trek.
Give us this day our daily update, and forgive us our expanding feature set, as we forgive those who ask for more.
And lead us not into boredom, but deliver us a complete game.
For thine is Supremacy, the editor and glory.
For ever and ever.
Amen.

That... was so beautiful *wipes tear*

[Kenneth_of_Borg]

Our Strobel, who art in Sharepoint, programmer be thy name.
Thy project come, thy will be done, on Earth, as it is in Star Trek.
Give us this day our daily update, and forgive us our expanding feature set, as we forgive those who ask for more.
And lead us not into boredom, but deliver us a complete game.
For thine is Supremacy, the editor and glory.
For ever and ever.
Amen.

Please find a place to hind that in the game.

[cdrwolfe]

ROFL awesome, that as said above needs to find a way into the game as an easter egg

Regards Wolfe

[Captain Andrew]

Perhaps if a peace victory is achieved, where all players become allies, then the "prayer to Strobel" can appear in the.... hmmm.... maybe bottom-left, as faded background text that is still readable. Or maybe it could be a hidden encyclopedia file (like the ones from MoO3).

[vjeko1701]

In the bottom of credits.

[denzil85]

I always thought the game ending sequence when you won the game in BOTF was a bit of an anti-climax, maybe you could have the Our Strobel read by the people who did the voices and that is part of how you are greeted on victory?

[Kenneth_of_Borg]

I like that idea. Let me fire up the recorder and see what happens.

[Matress_of_evil]

I did some firing too...and some mixing. I added some background music that I thought would give it a more...religious feeling.

...Some of you may actually recognise the tune. See if you can guess where it's from...

Download @ 810kb

[Kenneth_of_Borg]

Than is a nice start. I respectfully suggest that you slow down the delivery though. This will make the words clearer. Also increase the volume on the voice recording portion over the music. The music is nice. It might sound better with a Star Trek theme though. Also let the music play as an overture before you begin the reading. Then cut down the music and up the voice. I suggest you also end with the music trailing off at least a few seconds after you finish the reading. You cut yourself off too soon.

[Matress_of_evil]

Actually, that's my normal speaking voice Kenneth. I didn't speak fast at all, it's just my accent I suppose. And I'd already increased the volume by 17 decibels in Wavepad. Now that i'm living in Devon, I realise just how slow and loud the rest of the world is.

Oh well, Attempt 2. (1.8mb .mp3)

I haven't got any Trek music that I think would be appropriate for this. I think the music that i'm using just seems to fit. It's actually a remix of The Temple of Time from Zelda: Ocarina of Time if you were wondering. And the lyrics are in latin. They're "Sempre aeternam tempus aedes" repeated over and over.

[Kenneth_of_Borg]

Now that is a keeper. The timing means so much. Please save it on SP.

Actually I am use to your accent and I like to hear it. It, to my way of thinking, it adds to the whole. You must find my accent odd.

[denzil85]

Haha excellent! I suggested it be read out as a bit of a laugh but its pretty funny that you've had a couple of goes at it - I'm impressed

[Matress_of_evil]

The game is being made by the fans, for the fans. The fans have asked for it, therefore the fans have received it.

...That doesn't mean this will actually make it into the game though. Someone may make a better version (My voice recording has a background hiss that you can hear over the music for instance), and I haven't actually asked for permission to use the music. I just made this for fun. I would need to gain the permissions before we could use it, assuming that the permissions will actually be given. We may even decide one day not to include it for some reason.

But it's here for anyone to download for the time being. Enjoy and improve it if you want.

By the way, the original Temple of Time music is Here On Youtube if you don't know what it sounds like. The full version of the remix that I used is Also On Youtube.

Sharepointed, Kenenth.

[denzil85]

The game is being made by the fans, for the fans. The fans have asked for it, therefore the fans have received it.

Might I suggest that you are VERY careful saying things like that to me, my next request might be a video of the Supremacy team doing a drunken conga line or something potentially silly!

[Kenneth_of_Borg]

That was so last week - move on.